tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5393996338560944889.post7457884682182205737..comments2024-03-02T02:26:00.928-05:00Comments on bleakonomy: Why I have returned to vegetarianismtetracontadigonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04604381739383227553noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5393996338560944889.post-3311700113236504402010-03-03T08:27:44.843-05:002010-03-03T08:27:44.843-05:00We develop people without permission from the pers...<i>We develop people without permission from the person itself.</i><br /><br />Yes, an excellent point. I'm not sure there can be substitutes for emotions and suffering, however. These may be inevitable products of consciousness and self-awareness.<br /><br />I'm only suggesting society would be obligated once a moral-person AI was activated. We wouldn't be obligated to build it, but once it is here, we might not be able to turn it off without a ethically compelling reason.<br /><br />And if I may suggest it, AI entities would very quickly 'evolve' well past human abilities to understand or control. I believe such intelligences may be the next evolutionary phase of intelligence on this planet. We aren't close today -- a cockroach brain is around the best we can do at the moment -- but perhaps in our lifetime things will begin to snowball, and when it happens, it will go very quickly, IMVVHO.Gadfly Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5393996338560944889.post-8421966602175402352010-03-02T17:08:21.307-05:002010-03-02T17:08:21.307-05:00Charo - I was loose with language. By "intell...Charo - I was loose with language. By "intellectual," I meant higher cognitive function - like language, abstract thought, reasoning, planning, etc. Edmund will have little to none of that. There was a point at which it appeared that Edmund would remain basically non-responsive to the environment, and that was indeed really difficult terrain.<br /><br />And, as I said, there are things that Edmund can do, even now, that the smartest ape can't. And that is a lovely story.<br /><br />Bone - thanks! Have some thoughts on yours that I'll post!<br /><br />GJ: Assuming enough relevant cognitive similarity (including emotions, the ability to suffer (not just detect pain), self-awareness, consciousness, having qualia...then yes. Full moral personhood.<br /><br />We develop people without permission from the person itself. That said, I think we would need to tread carefully before creating someone to whom we would hold such obligations. It is hoped we could get a lot out of AI using substitutes of some kind for emotions and suffering.<br /><br />"And would society be obligated to fund any project that produced such an AI in order to keep the machinery from being turned off?" Those seem like two different questions. What must society pony up to start such a project? No obligations, there, except to tread carefully. Would we need to spend any amount of money to keep it from being unplugged? We don't spend all the money we could to save every human life now. Many lives could be saved with certain road improvements, say, that are too expensive for society to bear. Aren't there government cost/benefit analyses of the value of human life?Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09953173396955681485noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5393996338560944889.post-70298683884921031372010-03-02T16:37:45.771-05:002010-03-02T16:37:45.771-05:00one other thing, I just reread my posting and find...one other thing, I just reread my posting and find it a bit rough. Years ago I worked at a camp for ARC, one of the campers was a S&P boy, born without eyes (one of the things I had to do was put salve into his sockets to keep it moist, on the plus side, I learned from that I can handle pretty much anything) and who had a shunt to drain fluid from his brain. He had to be treated with great care.<br />I remember one day I took him into the pool. He stood there with the sun on his face and the water lapping at his midriff and he had a beautiful smile on his face, he literally radiated. Buddhist monks can train there whole lives to come to a moment that came naturally to him. He was completely of the moment and his place. As far as I know the smartest Chimp can not do this. Seeing him, I sensed he possessed something beyond my understanding, so how for a moment can I not consider him to be as "worthy" as I am. It has been 30 years this summer since then and that memory is as strong as yesterday. The smartest teacher I have had has not taught me as much and as vividly.<br /><br />charoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5393996338560944889.post-7469514699720582362010-03-02T14:26:31.909-05:002010-03-02T14:26:31.909-05:00If I only ate strict Vegetarians, what does that m...If I only ate strict Vegetarians, what does that make me?<br /><br />"So I think neither cognitive abilities nor species membership are necessary for moral consideration, but each is sufficient."<br /><br />I hate to get into the weeds of morality, I think Legality is a better approach. Legal reasoning is based on a host of factors, morality being just a portion of them. I accept the right of society, through the Democratic process, creating the laws which deal with such issues. Your own moral considerations are your business, just as long as you are willing to abide by the Democratic process in law making, I have no problems. If you don't want it to go to that extent, by say abolishing factory farming, then persuasion is your only other route.<br /><br />Not trying to sound crude but I don't think you mean this: But he has taught me to value more fully everything that a being can be without intellectual abilities.<br /><br />Certainly your son has intellectual abilities, they are just impaired. Someone with no intellectual abilities would be in a vegetative state. At that point we get into really difficult terrain.<br /><br />gj, we are a long, long way away from AI, so don't fret about turning off your mac at night just yet.<br /><br />charoAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5393996338560944889.post-35813796020143449802010-03-02T14:05:28.671-05:002010-03-02T14:05:28.671-05:00Great post, epic. I've replied to this at emb...Great post, epic. I've replied to this at embarrassing length over at my place. Cheers!Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02490045924214723301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5393996338560944889.post-88515921061799006022010-03-02T11:56:25.946-05:002010-03-02T11:56:25.946-05:00You would grant a artificial intelligence, equival...You would grant a artificial intelligence, equivalent to a typical human in cognitive ability, full moral personhood? Would it be ethical to continue development on such an AI absent permission from the AI itself? And would society be obligated to fund any project that produced such an AI in order to keep the machinery from being turned off? Inquiring minds want to know!Gadfly Johnnoreply@blogger.com